Chassis Numbers

[1939mgtb]

"bbbbbbbill in freeeeeezing nashville"
Bill, my tomato plant you met the other day, Mr. Gargantua, is still producing!!!
"We don't need no steeeking heater" is what he said this morning....

Best,
Ray

[Chip Old]

All this speculation is interesteng (I guess), but am I the only one here who remembers an MG-TABC posting a long time ago (possibly from Rolland Meismer, possibly from someone else who knew him and his TC well) to the effect that he had swapped out the chassis during restoration? If that's the case, then Rolland's TC 3409 has some other number on its chassis and Mark has the original chassis #3409.

Is there anyone here who lives close enough to Burlington, Iowa to go take a look? That's probably the only way to solve this puzzle.

Chip Old 1948 M.G. TC
Cub Hill, Maryland, US TC6710 XPAG7430
fold@bcpl.net NEMGTR #2271

[Terry Sanders]

I seem to remember this too Chip but I did a search on yahoogroups.com and did not find the definitive answer. Rolland joined the list on Nov. 5, 2000 and stated that his car had chassis TC3409, XPAG 3796. As I spot checked his messages from then until he died, he always refered to his chassis as TC3409. Clearly from the photo that Mark sent, he has chassis TC3409. So there is either a duplicate, this would be the first I have ever heard of, or Rolland misread his chassis number. Rolland did not seem like a guy who would appropriate another chassis number and then sell that chassis on.

If someone has a list of factory chassis numbers vs. engine numbers, perhaps that would aid in the mystery. BTW, he changed is earlier email address which was rameismer@......so the search has to be on both email addresses.

Rolland R.I.P

Terry in Oakland

[D&J Edgar]

I too just did a search on our Yahoo Groups site and while I did not find any reference to Rolland replacing his frame I did find a messages from him when the discussion of there being two TC 0252 (a frame and a tub owned by two different people).

Rolland also requested history on his TC 3409 twice. Don't know if he ever got answers or not but previous owners might be able to shed light on this TC. Rolland apparently joined our group in Nov 2000 (changed his email once in Dec 2001) and from all his emails did do quite a bit on the TC. He got it running under its own steam in June 2002.

I post his messages below.

David Edgar, TC 5108
El Cajon, California

======================================
January 31, 2005
I sure am glad that my TC number is out in the middle(3409) and no one cares if I cut it in half and make two cars. If I did that what number would the back half be?
Maybe the problem of car #0252 could be solved by calling them #0252 A and 252B
Rolland Meismer
Burlington,Iowa U.S.A.
1947 TC #3409--1951 TD #5522
===============
I am looking for information on my 1947 TC #3409 I have traced it to the widow of a Lee Katz that bought it in the fall of 1972, from a retired denist or doctor in Riverside or North Riverside Ill.(Cook County). At that time it was yellow or cream.Mr. katz moved to Florida in 1977. I thought that maybe someone in that area or someone that lived in that area at that time would know of the car.
From M.G.( Meismer's Garage)
Rolland Meismer
Burlington,Iowa U.S.A.
1947 TC #3409--1951 TD #5522
=================
I am looking for anyone in or near the Napels Fl. that may be of help to me in finding information about my 1947 TC. I have a name ( Lee l Katz of 612 Binnacle Dr. Naples Fl ) as the owner of the car starting in 1977 and later in Judith M Katz. When I bought the car it was red, but it had been repainted. Later (1996) it was sold to one Thomas J Accamando of 107 Tuscana Ct. Naples. Any information of any kind about this car would be very helpful.
From M.G.( Meismer's Garage)
Rolland Meismer
Burlington,Iowa U.S.A.
1947 TC #3409--1951 TD #5522
===================
June 10, 2002
It is with great pride, a lot of sweat and (a lot money as my wife points out) that I can announce that #3409 1947 TC has on this date June 10,2002 under it's own power was able to maintain motion , at least for a short distance. I now know how the Wright Bros. must have felt. I am reminded of an old flight instructor of mine that said of the plane we were flying that it was a collection of used parts flying in close formation. Still have a ways to go to finish the restoration but could wait no longer. Much thanks to all that have gave much needed advice.
From M.G.( Meismer's Garage)
Rolland Meismer
Burlington,Iowa U.S.A.
1947 TC #3409--1951 TD #5522
=====================[/quote]

[Mark Hineline]

On Dec 6, 2005, at 6:08 PM, D&J Edgar quoted R. Meismer who wrote:
I sure am glad that my TC number is out in the middle(3409) and no one cares if I cut it in half and make two cars. If I did that what number would the back half be?

David,

This is a very telling message from Rolland.

It's starting to make a little sense. There is another message from him asking about the Chicago MG Club. The proceeds from the sale of the frame to me went to the Chicago MG Club, from a donor.

Mark
TC 3409a

[Bob Grunau]

Yes Chip, I recall something about different chassis. IMHO the answer is simple, Roland switched chassis and kept the TC-3409 registration on the new chassis ( number unknown ). Then the original TC-3409 chassis was sold, eventually to Mark H.
Bob Grunau

All this speculation is interesteng (I guess), but am I the only one here who remembers an MG-TABC posting a long time ago (possibly from Rolland Meismer, possibly from someone else who knew him and his TC well) to the effect that he had swapped out the chassis during restoration? If that's the case, then Rolland's TC 3409 has some other number on its chassis and Mark has the original chassis #3409.

Is there anyone here who lives close enough to Burlington, Iowa to go take a look? That's probably the only way to solve this puzzle.

[1939mgtb]

Well, if someone happens by Gaydon, or David has some info, we have it solved.........
Ray

Happy Ramahanakwannamas during the Mid winter solstice break...How's that for PC??
To heck with it...MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!!!

[Mark Hineline]

On Dec 6, 2005, at 6:05 PM, Ray (1939mgtb) wrote:
we have it solved.........

In the technical sense, maybe. The intangibles are another matter. TC 3409 has a history, some of which was recorded in the list archives. It came from Sarasota, FL. It had a clunk at one point. The badge bar got whacked by the garage door. All that history resides with the car in Iowa. Not to mention the fact that Rolland Meismer thought of his car as 3409, used that number as though it were the car's given or Christian name.

So in all probability, and in a narrowly technical, legal sense I own TC 3409, and Mrs. Meismer's car should presumably be renumbered according to the number now on the chassis.

Cold comfort.

In a perfect world, the frame would be reunited with the car, and I would take the orphan frame and its number. But as we all know, this is not a perfect world.

My point being ... what?

How about this: my car will be TC MMMCDIV. Anyone have a better idea?

Mark
TC MMMCDIV

[Mark Hineline]

Make that MMMCDIX. I was counting on my fingers and toes.

[Steve Simmons]

> How about this: my car will be TC MMMCDIV. Anyone have a better idea?

How about TC3409 and TC3409/2?

So in all probability, and in a narrowly technical, legal sense I own TC 3409, and Mrs. Meismer's car should presumably be renumbered according to the number now on the chassis.

Since a car is referred to by it's chassis (frame) number, not the parts bolted to it, then your car is 3409 in my opinion. However the history you mentioned belongs more to the other car since the frame has little to do with a car's particular character. I would tell the stories as "when the car was TC3409, the garage door hit the badge bar, right here".

Tough call, isn't it? Good luck!

- Steve S, TC8975 (for sure), LA, CA -

[Murray Arundell]

Call it Mark's TC and we can all get on with life........

Murray G. Arundell
Brisbane

[Gene Gillam]

Tell you what Mark...I hate orphan cars.

I bought a plate off eBay several years ago with a chassis number that doesn't show up among our members. Grind the number off your chassis and I'll send this to you for Christmas. The chassis for the car I'm building doesn't have a number on it but that doesn't matter since I've got the registration papers that came with it (number and all).

Roland can have 3409 and you can have whatever it is I've got in my drawer.

Gene Gillam
Saucier, MS

[49 MG TC]

There is a God and this time his name is Gene. I must say that is one of the nicest gestures I have ever seen. It solves everyones problem. If Mark accepts this kind offer I suggest we all see what we can do for Gene for Christmas. I was going to suggest that we find out what number, if any, is on the car in Iowa and that Mark adopt that number. That would have kept anyone else from finding themselves in the same boat. This offer from Gene however is too kind to pass up. Mark, I really hope that you accept this offer. There will be peace.... peace in our time....

Bud Silvers
TC 8192 - Low n slo in the Black Forest of Colorado

[FDShade@aol.com]

In a message dated 12/6/2005 7:59:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, anngene@bellsouth.net writes:

Grind the number off your chassis

Then stamp it with "0250" or "10252" (as neither of those numbers are taken) - and that will REALLY confound some future owner. ;-)

Jim Shade, West Covina CA

[Murray Arundell]

Ladies and Gentlemen of the T List,

Now as you all know I am the last to be getting on the phone to the Originality Police but I'm having a little trouble here with the current proposal to effectively strip one car of its identity and graft it to another... I actually find it quite amusing after wading through the multitude of e-mails pleading for information on how to get it "totally right" here we are telling someone to go out and fudge an ID?

Like I said, I don't really care one way of another, for the most basic of all reasons, ie my car's history is known. I'm am however curious to hear/read what the OP Purist out there have to say about it. Particularly in light of the fact huge portions of this list slagged off a guy a few weeks ago because he wanted to build a copy TC from scratch.

In any case fudge a legitimate car ID and what you are left with is nothing different..

Murray G. Arundell
Brisbane

[D&J Edgar]

Mark,

I suppose you could do what Rolland did. As all you have right now is a frame and your woodwork of a new tub you will be buying lots of pieces and parts from ebay, swap meets or wherever to complete your buildup. You might find a tub or basket case with an ID plate. Use that number then with the mismatched frame. Perfect? No, but as you said it is not a perfect world.

Using Gene's very generous offer would work too. In the mean time maybe we should list you as TC (undetermined yet) for now.

David Edgar, TC 5108
El Cajon, California

[Mark Hineline]

On Dec 6, 2005, at 8:20 PM, Murray Arundell wrote:
In any case fudge a legitimate car ID and what you are left with is nothing different.

There are really two different questions going on here. One is the legal status of my ownership of TC 3409. That's settled. I own TC 3409, and when it comes time to register it, that's how it will be registered.

The other is, as it were, my "handle" or alias on this list. Like Cary Grant, who wasn't born Cary Grant. That can be solved by Gene's offer. Whatever the number on that plate, that's who I'll be, and that's the number I'll use to refer to my TC as it takes shape. That way I don't usurp the identity of former, deceased list member.

No issue for the OP to be concerned about.

Since I'm the guy that the list "slagged," I don't want to repeat the experience.

End of discussion?

Mark
TC whatever number Gene gives me

[MIKEFRAN@aol.com]

Gene

While on the surface your offer would seem to offer one solution. It could very possibly cause another problem when and if the chassis connected with the makers plate that you have shows up at a later date.

For one thing, those of us playing with MGs back in the 60's often went for the best bits when assembling a car. Matching numbers were less of an issue than putting the best car on the road. I, for one, am guilty of putting more than one T-type back on the road with parts from more than one car and in the case of the manufacturers plate, if that matched the title I had, it became the identity of that car, chassis number not withstanding.

The first TC I had came from the U.K. from someone who had more than a passing knowledge of several breaking yards because it was such a mix of parts it was best described as an MG-TABC.

Meismer's TC probably has a different chassis. To suggest that two chassis left the factory with the same number is to grasp at the most minute of straws. The only area in which this probably really matters is with K-3's, J-4's and Q-types where the difference amounts to the monetary value of a great many TC's.

And besides the Badger has probably had enough of this subject as he had of vapor lock.

Mike Francks
TC 8332 (matching numbers except for the XPEG presently residing therein)
PA 1850 (matching numbers except for the PB engine)

[Charles Hill]

Mark,

Do you have the title for TC 3409? If not, you don't own that car. You may own the original chassis for TC 3409, but that is it. Don't expect to be able to title your car as TC 3409. There are all sorts of legal precedents here. I'm not a lawyer and don't understand them all myself.

I know every state has different laws so my experiences here in Missouri may not exactly apply in California. Here, a vehicle without a title will require verification of ownership (sales receipts for the parts for instance) before the state will assign an VIN to the vehicle. I suspect you will have similar hoops to jump through. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to check on them before you get too far along on this project.

Regards,
Charles Hill

[Murray Arundell]

Charles,

I don't think that the title is the issue here. The issue is who has TC 3409. As it is generally accepted that if you have the chassis showing the number this then is the car you own.

I would suspect that if anyone was bothered (and remember we are talking about MGTCs and not Aston Martin DB$ Zagatos here) to challenge the ID of the Meismer car a case could be made that it is definitely not what its particular title suggest that it is.

Of course this is all pretty much of no consequence unless its discovered that 3409 is Nuffield's Mistress' car or some such......

My only real interest in this is the suggestion seemingly make in all seriousness to "fake" a car's ID when there is so much argument on this list about originality. Am I the only one that sees hypocrisy in this?

Cheers - Murray G. Arundell
In Hot Brisbane Australia, 40C and we're waiting for BIG storm to come and cool us all down :-)