Best Timber Parts

[robj]

Looking for some opinions here.

So who do you think, [from experience] makes the best fitting timber parts? [in the states]

99% of mine came from Moss, [which I read somewhere come from Hudson] and to be honest the fit from one piece to the next is pretty dismal.

I figured some "fitting" would be required and had no illusions they would "snap" together but these are pretty far off. Actually, really far off. Seems as if whoever is making these use a pattern but never check to see if they actually fit to each other.
Unless, Moss has more than one supplier, which I suspect may be the issue.

Too much wood where it shouldn't be and not enough wood where it should be. The former is fixable, the latter is what's a real pain.

Obviously I hate to buy parts twice but the time and energy spent making these fit might be better spent on other parts of the project.

Thanks for your input,
robj

[BCBryan]

This is an important question because most restorers are better at metal and body work than wood. I'm a reasonable experienced wood worker and I chose to get the key body wood from Craig Seabrook in Ohio. I was happy with what I got from him. The really important parts on my view are first and foremost the rear door post which carry the hinges, the front post which support the desk and cowl and then the pieces which ride over the rear fender arch.
I knew when I bought my TC that there was some wood rotten but I was not expecting what I found as I started to disassemble the car for a full restoration. Even wood that seemed sound had bad iron rot around the fasteners, which necessitated replacing 90 % of the wood. The most vulnerable parts are the four pillars where they join the main beam- the end grain of the posts wicks up water and the rot badly.
Good Luck with your project.
Cheers, Bryan.

[Steve Simmons]

I ordered my floorboards from Craig Seabrook / Whitworth Shop. They were spot on and high quality, at a reasonable price. If I were looking for other wood bits I would certainly consider ordering from him.

[IslandMG]

In the 70s while living in the UK I restored the original body on my TC with wooden parts from Naylor Brothers whom I recall later sold their body manufacturing business to Hutson. It was impossible to mate their ash timbers to the originals, particularly the wheel arches and rear door posts. Their arches also had larger radii which meant that I had to have new inner metal pieces made in the correct gauge to fit and the lower forward edge of the rear wings lengthened by two inches to properly match the running boards. The rear wings also had to be skillfully adjusted by Len Pritchard of Williams and Pritchard (who skinned the repaired body) to match the larger radius. Although he was pretty mild mannered and polite, he had a few choice words about Naylor’s products. The car had never been taken apart, and when I complained to Phil Richmond, the parts manager, about the incorrect dimensions his reply was “your car must be wrong”, an all too common reply to complaints about quality from UK parts suppliers in that era. So I ended up having replace the two upper pieces of both wheel arches which were otherwise perfectly reusable with Naylor wood. (£££) You may have encountered a similar issue if your parts were produced by Hutson. It also made the fitting of Collingburn trim panels tricky as well as a challenge determining the correct position of the hood frame pivots. Sourcing better quality wood sounds like a good idea.

Rod

[JayF]

Rob
you are unknowingly pulling me back in to my project as I too had the same exact questions and complaints you have when I was working on my yet to be completed TC tub( which was put on hold because of home renovations)
Anyway, Craig Seabrook is retired and is only currently repairing gauges and making dashboards. He told me last year that anything dealing with body panels and wood he sold the remaining stock to FTFU. I order most of my T series parts from Doug these days as he is beyond helpful and super nice. With that said, I ordered wood from Doug as well as Moss. The pieces I received were the same with the same part numbers on it. It seems to me that these days the choices are limited. When I get home, I will take some pics and post them up of some of my frustrations and the different pieces of wood from assorted vendors and we can compare notes. It would be nice if someone who has done the job could weigh in with pics on how they went about getting everything to work.

[stephen stierman]

Many years ago, I built a new tub for TC2911 now gone to a new home and missed. I am not really a wood worker and have very little skill in that direction and my major woodworking tool is a jig saw if that tells you anything. I did make a few of the straight pieces for the side curtain compartment and the back fuel tank panel but that was really the extent. I ordered all my timbers from Moss as at that time I was buying quite a few other bits from them. The door frames did not require replacement. The front top rail on the scuttle was reused at it locates the body tub nicely with its holes to the firewall correctly, the inner dash panel was also saved, and I did use one rear elbow section but everything else was replaced. I have built and repaired a few Morgan tubs over the years so have had some experience along these lines. Honestly, I did not have a lot of difficulty in putting things together and did not find anything that was not useable or required major repair. I will say that there is a degree of "adjustment" needed to make things fit up and particularly the angles of the latch and hinge pillars as the major goal here is to get the doors to fit nicely. The only sheet metal on the tub I reused was the scuttle that required typical repair under the windshield plinths. The front and rear quarters, lower doors and top metal behind the tank were replaced and these panels needed to be made to fit my new timbers. I will say that I was quite happy to be able to look in a catalog and be able to pick the timbers I needed and have them on my doorstep in just a few days.

If you are trying to use existing panels, I have no doubt that you are going to have to do some shaving here and there to get things to fit. I don't know enough about good woodworking to say that any of the joint fit up or timber shape was substandard. From my previous experience I knew that some adjustment was going to be required. Someone once told me that "you aren't building a coffee table" so it won't be perfect, and I totally agree. It is a supporting structure so shimming, and some adjustment is going to be needed. The hinge and latch pillars were not affixed permanently till I had was satisfied with the door fit up. These are made of wood, and I am sorry to say that things may not be exactly the same from one side to another. Everything is fair game in getting the doors to fit and I suggest the tub be constructed on the chassis on four wheels with running gear in place as there is some flex vehicle. I only have some photos of the finished product, so probably not of much help, but I will post anyway.

[robj]

I started out attempting to make new door pillars fit my existing pieces. Some of my tub was original and some were replacement parts probably from many, many years ago.
I ended up deciding to start from scratch.
I'm sure the most of the sellers of timber parts are getting them from suppliers and are not making them themselves. So the problem of getting quality parts is twofold, who your buying from and where they are getting them [if not making them themselves]
Then there's the issue of if the resellers are getting all their parts from the same supplier.

As I said, "Too much wood where it shouldn't be and not enough wood where it should be. The former is fixable, the latter is what's a real pain."
I recall reading somewhere of parts being made in the New England area, [or maybe Maine?]
Anyone know who that might be and what their quality/fit is?

robj

[robj]

Has anyone bought parts from "MG Ash Frames" in the UK? I'm sure shipping would be a consideration but still...

http://mgashframes.co.uk

robj

[Rob Reilly]

Be sure all the timber parts you buy are really for the right model. Four of the parts I bought from FTFU for TA turned out to be for TC; they were not marked in any way, just slightly different so a stockpicker can't tell them apart, but sure wouldn't fit together.

Today I discovered a defect with the hinge pillars from Hutson. They are pre-notched for the door hinges, the exact width to fit the hinge, but one side the spacing from top to top of the notches is 7-7/16" where the other side is 7-9/16". The doors are both 7-9/16".

Seems like you have to trial fit every piece with a lot of clamps before screwing anything together.
I bet the factory guys at Morris Bodies had some sort of assembly jig with clamps everywhere.
Like this one at SS Cars.

[robj]

Now that's a jig!

Craig Seabrook's name came up a few times with regard to quality timber parts. Some thought he was no longer making parts and had sold his patterns to Doug Peyton at FTFU. I communicated with him and It seems he's no longer making complete tubs but still has the patterns and is still making timber parts, [in addition to the beautiful dash and gauge work he does]
He said he's not pushing the timber parts and doesn't list them on his site but he's a supplier of timber parts to FTFU. I don't know if he's the only supplier to FTFU.
I ordered some parts, Latch and Hinge pillars, Elbows, Rear Top Side Rail and Scuttle Side Rail.

I'll report back when they are received.

robj

[Rob Reilly]

I'm sort of sure that Doug Pelton gets timbers from Hutson as well, at least some of the parts I got from FTFU were rubber ink stamped with the same letters TA that I see on my Hutson supplied timbers.

Here is another shot of that body jig at SS Cars circa 1936. SS Cars was formerly Swallow Coachbuilding, putting stylish bodies on other people's chassis such as Austin and Standard but never MG. Here they are building a "coachbuilt" 4 door saloon, their first model to carry the model name Jaguar.

[robj]

I can see where timbers from different resellers could be an issue and if some resellers are selling parts from different manufacturers that would compound the issue.

One would "think" parts made by the same manufacturer "should" fit together decently as I'm thinking they can check their patterns for each part and determine if they fit together. Hence all their own parts should fit together, [at least if they're made with some care].
But there's no guarantee all patterns used by all companies are alike, and the odds are very likely against it, even if the end result, [the tub] end up the same.
No wonder there's issues with fitment, if different resellers are getting parts from different suppliers. I was thinking along these lines getting everything from Moss but they probably have different suppliers as well.

Maybe that's why guys like Craig Seabrook have a good reputation for fitment, always the same part from the same manufacturer.

robj

[robj]

I ended up needing some door timbers. I wrote to Craig Seabrook to have them added to my order for tub parts. He had all but 2 so as he is a supplier to FTFU, I sent an inquiry to them;

"A quick question; Do you only get timbers from Craig Seabrook or do you have other vendors?"

Doug's, [quick] reply;I have different suppliers depending on the specific piece as all of this is hand made. Also, pieces may vary in quality and availability.

What are you looking for? Doug

To which I replied, [get your coffee...]

Hi Doug,

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. I understand all the timbers are handmade and as such will require some fitting.
I initially thought I could get away with replacing one Main Rail and the Hinge and Latch Pillars which I bought from you.

This ended up being a bit problematic as my tub appears to be an older restoration with some parts being "homemade" which didn't fit to newly made parts very well at all.

I ended up making the [rash?] decision to build a new tub. I ordered all the remaining tub parts from Moss, based mostly on price [possibly a bad decision but it may have made no difference in the end]

Anyway, the fit of the rear tub parts from Moss to your parts was pretty bad. And even the fit of the Moss parts to each other wasn't great by any stretch. I had no expectations these would "snap together" but they were honestly pretty far off.

No reflection on what you sell or what Moss sells as I'll explain below. Basically too much wood where it shouldn't be and not enough wood where it should be. The former is not a big issue but the latter is a bit of a pain.

In view of this I posted on "TACB" and the "MG Experience" a query as to "who makes the best fitting timbers?" From the responses it appears no one is terribly happy with fitment but Craig Seabrook's name came up more than once. Some said he was no longer making timbers, some saiid he sold the patterns to you but timbers are not mentioned on his website.

I reached out to him directly and he suggested buying from you but said he is still making timbers and is also suppling timbers to you.

I've been giving the fitment issue a lot of thought. I can't imagine all of the patterns used by those making timbers are all exactly the same. The end result, a tub that the panels fit on may be the same, but where the timbers are joined to each other could differ slightly between suppliers, that being said, I would think that each supplier would endeavor to make certain their parts fit to each other.

I can see where fitment problems [fitting one piece to the next] could arise if [all] resellers are getting parts from different vendors and pulling pieces at random without regard to who has produced them. I can also see logistically this could be a real issue to accomplish from a resellers point of view. [Unless there was a marking system to denote the supplier, again somewhat problematic.]

As an experiment I ordered all new [rear] tub parts and door parts from Craig Seabrook, thus ensuring the parts were from the same manufacturer, figuring the Scuttle parts are quite a bit easier to modify.
I've haven't received the parts as of yet so I can't report on the results of my "experiment".

Craig had the door parts except for;
#6 Right Door Bottom Rail
#9 Right Door Hinge Pillar

If you have these available, is there anyway to determine if what you have were supplied by Craig as I'm hoping to continue with my "experiment".

Thanks for your time, and I apologize for this lengthy screed but I wanted to fully explain my thoughts.

Rob Jones
Fork, Md.

Awaiting his response,

robj

[Rob Reilly]

I'm beginning to think this is the argument for buying a completely assembled timber tub. All the parts from one source and they have already done this and know how it should end up.
But the counter-argument is cost, and I am already upside-down on this TA, with seats and interior yet to buy.

[robj]

Rob I feel your pain.

I was doing some mental math as to where I am now cost and progress wise and I'm pretty sure when all is said and done I'll be at the price of a half-way decently restored and done TC, so $30,000? And that's doing everything myself including paint. But at least the engine's good and nice wheels and tires. What can go wrong? Right?
I hope I'm wrong but I fear I'm not...
robj

[Steve Simmons]

Man, I'd rather have a totally blown engine and gearbox than one bad piece of wood!

I agree buying a full tub is the best way to go unless you have the skills and patience to deal with building one yourself. And even then it's still tempting. The cost is certainly high, but for someone like me with feeble woodworking skills it could save a year of work and still have a better end result.

I believe Hustons will also sell you a completely skinned tub. Even more tempting but even more expensive as well.

[Rob Reilly]

Yes, the current Hutson's price for an assembled bare timber frame without doors is 4048 pounds or about $5000 US dollars, on up to 8640 pounds or $10686 fully paneled with doors FOB midlands.
I've got about $2600 in timber parts.

[robj]

And also the "satisfaction" of having done it yourself. Your friends and neighbors may not care but there are many here that appreciate what that means!

I did reach out to Doug Pelton, [FTFU] with a slightly lengthy email with my thoughts on timbers and the difficulties in mixing timbers from different producers.
He did state that Craig Seabrook was a "primary supplier";

" I have Craig as my primary supplier and I try to keep everything in stock, but it takes a long time. As stated previously, I have multiple suppliers for different pieces. We are the only company that builds tubs in the US, so I am very familiar with which piece fits what and I choose accordingly. If I cannot get a particular piece, then I may go to an alternate source."

He also mentioned they do build complete tubs and as such, know what parts work and what doesn't. Makes perfect sense and probably why he buys from Craig.
I opened the box of parts from Craig tonight and obviously fitment is where it's at, and I haven't tried fitting them together yet, but I have to say in finish and detail they are so much nicer that anything I've bought elsewhere. Even the quality of the wood. If they fit anywhere as nice as they look I'll be a very happy camper.

robj

[Duncan M]

Too bad the usual suspects no longer sell the complete skinned tubs. Did not Moss used to carry that item? You could always order a complete restoration from someplace like FTFU. Not only could you get a new skinned tub, but also a good rebuilt Bishop cam box with the actual sector shaft seal if you insist on it. No telling what all that would cost.

[robj]

I believe FTFU still does tubs as well as full restorations. I didn't inquire about cost$.

robj