TC Forever More Tub Frame Modification and Tub Build

[robj]

So Guess this is where the real fun begins. I'm now starting to understand how completion of the tub takes so long.

Despite the fact that my Diff. Ramp and Diff. Cover were spot on at 32 3/4", the bottom of the Hinge Pillars when clamped to the Main Rails were at 41 5/8" not the 42" in TCF. I ended up using my porta-power to spread the rails slightly, leaving it sit overnight with some tension. That did the trick and I tightened the frame bolts at the 42".

I think the Bulls Horn needs to be opened up on the left side as that's a little tight and doesn't appear to be at 90 degrees. I'm guessing the torch, some wet rags to contain the heat and a little tweak ought to do it.

Burning question#1 [of many to come I'm sure] In FTFU there's a diagram with measurements and a note; "Inside Top Front Corner of door Post- 45 1/2"...

Exactly where is the "Inside Top Front Corner of door Post"???

Burning question #2. Looking at the beauty of some finished tubs and I'm really wondering how I make mine look like that?

The question is, looking at the fitment of my pieces, for now focusing on the hinge pillar to Elbow joint, how do you decide what to make fit to what? a little off each? Trim off the "fattest" one?

For the filler pieces, especially the "Rear Wing Block Set" I couldn't find anything about how to attach them so I screwed them in from the rear of the backboard, figuring they'll be covered with metal anyway. Seemed to work.

I'm hoping some of those that have been down this path could help with these questions.

Thanks,
robj

[JayF]

Rob
I found some pics of the corner. Ignore the backboard in the picture as that is a mess and what prompted me to take the car apart in the first place however I believe that the arches and upper pieces to be original and untouched.
The circled area in the last picture should not have a gap there. As you can see, they are screwed from the inside. I hope this helps.

[robj]

Thanks Jay,
Hard to have too much information. Any photos of original tubs are helpful!

So after quite a bit of agonizing, trial fitting, measuring I came to the conclusion I wasn't real happy with the rear tub timber parts I got from Moss. Mostly the Hinge Pillar, Elbow, and Rear Top Side Rail.
I posed the question here and on "MG Experience" as to who makes decent timbers? One name came up more than once, "Craig Seabrook". Some said he was no longer making timbers, but it appears he's no longer making complete tubs. It was also thought he sold his patterns to Doug at FTFU, but that's not the case either. In fact he supplies timbers to FTFU. [not sure if he's their only supplier]
So Craig isn't pushing the timbers but he does have them and does do beautiful dash and gauge work.
I ordered some parts from him, the pieces mentioned above plus the Latch Pillar and the Scuttle Side Rail.
I'll report back on the fitment.

So while waiting for that, [and anticipating/hoping it goes together well] the next thing needed are the doors.

I sandblasted the worst one first as some wood needs replacing as "some" PO was not exactly a "craftsman" in that regard. I'm actually wondering if his only tool was an axe...

There was some pitting on the inside bottom and face, with a few small through holes, mostly in the forward end.

I made a 2 part patch, one for the outside panel that folds over at the bottom, and one for the inside structure. In hindsight, I should have made it a little longer but that would have got complicated by the curve and involve shrinking .

I got those 2 pieces in pretty nice but ended up with a high spot on the face from a little too much heat, despite cooling the welds with air. Oh well... I ordered a new shrinking disc as mine is sorta shot. I'm hoping that works but I may have to resort to a torch shrink. We'll see. It's going to take a skim coat on the face but less than a 64th of an inch and I can live with that.

Of course I noticed another pin hole or two, forward of the patch. Even with the copper backing it was thin enough it blew right through. I tried chasing it for a moment but no luck.

Ended up making a second patch to go right next to the first one. It looked pretty ugly before grinding but turned out ok. I really think I need to try my hand at TIG welding.

Of course there's 1-2 pinholes but they're in the weld and "shouldn't blow through. Just to be safe I'm making a custom fit piece of copper for a little extra insurance..

As it's Spring, did some mowing and some bush hog work in the field so not much MG work tonight.

robj
P>S> I did tap the plates that go behind the latch for 10/32 machine screws so I did do at least something...

[robj]

Part 2.

As I said, ugly but cleaned up pretty well. Now for those 2-3 pin holes in the welds. Hopefully no blow-throughs!

I should have made the folded over portion of the face part of the large patch a tiny bit shorter but it was hard to tell that before it was mostly folded over. Next time.

I was thinking I was tapping the support brackets for 8/32 machine screws, but, I depended on memory [never a good thing at 72] and grabbed a #21 bit instead of the #29 I should have used. So it'll be 10/32. Oh well, bigger is better, right?

robj

[robj]

Started working on the other door.

The good news, after sandblasting in the cabinet, no rust that I can see so far. But I'm replacing most of the wood in that one so we'll see what it looks like inside when the wood is removed.
The bad news?

A fair portion of the outside is covered with over 1/8", almost 3/16s of what appears to be metal reinforced epoxy filler. The sandblast will hardly touch it. Maybe I need new grit. A DA with 40 grit wouldn't touch it either. I think I'm going to try and get at least some off with 36 grit on a rotary sander. Carefully...

No wonder that door felt "heavy"...

I think the fact that it's old makes it harder yet. I actually didn't think they had that type of filler 20+ years ago but if it's not that I don't know what it is.
I've used it myself before but on only very specialize locations. Last time it was on the cooling tins on a VW engine.

And I'm not quite sure why it's there. There's one small dent over a timber part that would be hard to get to but so far that's it. The only thing I can think of is the PO, or some PO was trying to make up for a mis-shaped door instead of using an adjustable strap inside.

But, at least no rust!

robj

[Steve Simmons]

Wow, that's thick!

[robj]

That's what I thought Steve,

And hard as nails. A 36grit on a rotary grinder got most off, leaving just a trace for the sandblast cabinet, [and without scarring the metal too much].
There were a few small dents that were filled and a slight low spot but nothing that warranted that level of filler.

To be honest I think a PO was making up for lack of proper twist in the door with a layer of filler. Makes sense as if the door loosens due to age, shrinkage of timbers, screws/nails getting looser, it would tend to flatten out.

A little spoon and dolly got the worst out but I need to remove the frame to get to the rest.



robj

[Steve Simmons]

The previous owner of my '67 MGB GT did something similar. The rear quarters weren't welded on right so there was a big difference between the quarter and the bottom rear of the door. He made up the difference with filler. Needless to say, that has been remedied. Cut, filler strip and re-weld both sides.

[robj]

No posts doesn't necessarily denote a lack of progress. Exceedingly slow progress but progress none the less.

I think I have no less than 40-50 hours in straightening the "filler door". Crazy I know but I was determined to get the door to the point where "almost" no filler was necessary and the curves, top to bottom and front to back were correct.

A few spots will need the thinest of skim coat, where I got a little deep with the 36 grit getting the old filler off and a few spots directly over the inner support where no access was possible. And a few spots where I welded and it was a little to thick to move easily.

. All the warts!
My prior body working usually involved hammers and dollies, but after hours watching "Wray Schelin's" You Tube videos [Pro Shaper] I learned the benefits of a dolly and spoon, [or slapper], and a shrinker disk. A much improved, [and old school] method of dent removal and smoothing. I have to say I've never been able straighten metal with this level of success.

Straight and smooth as a baby's you know what.

Basically holding the dolly in the back and "slapping" the dent [or depression] and the dolly raises the dent. If it gets too high, shrinking it with the disk.
The learning curve is raising it too far, then shrinking too much, having to raise it again, over and over. It takes a gentle touch best learned through practice. Now I have a lot of practice so maybe the next door and the rest of the sheet metal will go a little more quickly.

Even ended up making a slapper from a piece of leaf spring when I couldn't find a size I liked. Tools pictured.

I still have to add the wood frame work and TC Forever More door hinge stiffener. And weld the little cap that goes above the top hinge that lets you get the wood into a pre-formed door. I'm saving any additional work on the skin until that's all complete. But so far so good.

On to the next door. Hopefully that one will go a little quicker...

robj

[Steve Simmons]

Very nice work!

[robj]

Thanks Steve,

My garage buddies that come by on Friday evening for beers and solving the world's problems were pretty sure I had lost my mind. I heard "good enough" more than once but I was determined. Now that I think about it was probably 2 weeks worth of long evenings.
But, it turned out well and I gained some skills along the way.

rob

[robj]

One step forward, two steps back.

Door #2
Soaked the bottom of the door in a trough with rust remover and of course some perforations reared their ugly head. Was able to weld them up [without patches] and moved onto straightening the dents.

I originally thought this door was better than the first but it's almost as bad, just different. After 5 evenings, [5-6 hours each] I felt like I have got the worst out and was working on the tiny spots.

Then realized the door had a greater "bulge" [?] than the first door. The first door curved both directions but in general felt somewhat flat. [hard to describe but it felt "fair"]
The second door had a distinct bulge [crown?] which just seemed wrong.
Put a straight edge across both and the second door had about 1/4" greater "gap" at the ends.

Well shoot... Now using the shrinking disc in an attempt to evenly "flatten" pretty much the entire middle of the door.

Areas where it felt too high...

Getting close but not there yet...

This may have been why the PO had such a thick layer of filler on door #1, trying to make them match. Just a thought.

With a straight edge going fore and aft in the middle of the "bulge" door I had a gap at the front of 7/8" and 15/16 at the rear. On the "good" door it was 5/8" front and 3/4" at the rear.

If anyone is inclined to check theirs, it would be a great help.

Thanks,
robj

[robj]

So after countless hours of slapping, shrinking, slapping, shrinking I finally have the door skins pretty much where I want them
Should need very minimal skim coat of filler.

Getting ready to start the installation of the door timber, rails and pillars.

Any hints or suggestions regarding that? Order, what to fit to what?

Thanks, Rob

[robj]

Had to do a pause on the darn doors. The first [drivers side] went well. The passenger sideways another matter. It had what to me was too much curve, top to bottom. Almost felt like a bulge in the middle of the door. The drivers was sort of flat in that direction. A flat edge across the center had maybe a 1/4" gap at the top to the bottom so it wasn't completely "flat".

The problem door had maybe 1/2' gap [or more] to start and by slapping and shrinking I got a good bit of that out but to still doesn't feel right to me.
I spoke with Doug at FTFU about another issue and mentioned the door issue. He tried to explain the amount of curve but that's not really too successful over the phone. So I ended up buying a used door from him to compare with mine. We shall see.

While waiting on that I figured out I would clean and recondition my radiator. One was on the car and a spare came with the car. I figured I may as well do both and maybe sell one.
Both had some issues such as a broken bolt here and there as well as stress or vibration cracks in the 2 plates the cross bar bolts to. One was missing entirely .

I think I'll tackle that first by making new plates out of thicker metal. Not following much of a logical order but it's all got to be done right?
robj

[Steve Simmons]

Well you sure ended up digging deep into this car!

[robj]

I know. What was I thinking???

Radiator Bracket Question;
I have the radiator that came in my TC [running, no leaks] but had a spare that came with the parts. I was going to recondition both and sell one but I think the core in the spare may not be worth it.

One of the brackets for the crossbar were missing [cracked and most of the bracket missing] on the spare and both brakes one the "good" radiator were cracked in the same spot. Appears this is a weak spot, [#1 and #2]

I made new brackets from 20 gauge, [originals were 17g.] [#3]

They need to be spot welded to the frame, but I noticed the one radiator off my car had 2 bolt holes through the upright bracket on the side of the radiator [but it's not threaded nor a captive nut].
The other radiator has a hole on the inside portion of the upright bracket but not through the second part of the bracket.

[#3 and #4]

Were these holes for an earlier model? They don't seem to be required on my TC unless I'm missing something.
Hard to explain, maybe the photos will help.

Thanks,
robj

[robj]

So one radiator is ready to go to the shop. all brackets are welded up with new parts, [thicker] to replace damaged and cracked parts. Painted with POR-15 except areas that will need to be soldered.

I've been told that a "good" radiator shop can replace the core with a new one despite the odd shape of the top tank.
Any suggestions on what to look for in a new core? More tubes?

Anyway, back to the door skins. I bought a used door from Doug at FTFU. It's pretty decent but of course a few rust hole on the bottom where the rail goes and a bit of "waviness". But, it did solve my quandary of the two doors I have. One, a family flat skin, [top to bottom] and one with a bit more of a bulge in the middle.
The door from Doug more resembled the "flatter"door.
So, I went to work to shrink the bulge with renewed vigor. After a bit of work I got that door to match the other pretty closely. At last!
Getting the doors ready for timber, I saw that the edge that's nailed was quite winkled from numerous bouts of hammering.

Tried a slapper and dolly but is a little too tight, no working room.
Now here's the tip of the day! The edge was pretty wavy and I was able to straighten with a "punch and flange tool", normally used for forming a lip on sheet meter prior to butting and welding a new panel. Had it for years but stopped using it going to a butt weld process. I'm sure I paid a lot more years ago, but Harbor Freight has them for $59.

Anyway, by just using half of the crimp part I was able to go around the entire nailing flange on the skin, straightening and making it perfectly flat.
Worked a charm! Definitely a time saving tip!

RobJ

[robj]

Doing the next guy a favor, [or at least I think I am].

As most of the rust perforations I welded up and the patch panels installed appeared to originate on the inside of the door, [condensation running down the inside?], I again blasted the inside of the doors with glass bead, for a really good "tooth" then a coat of POR-15, making especially sure to get it into the pinched seam.

Applying a second coat. It's supposed to be top coated due to lack of UV protection but I'm not sure that's an issue inside a door.

Next up, fitting the new wood, wish me luck, [or patience!]

robj

[robj]

Have the timbers pretty much fitted to the doors.

The second door took about half the time. Not sure if it's "slightly' increased skill level, or the timbers or the door or whatever but I'll take it. Still quite a few more things to do, screws, the hinge brace from TC's Forever more, etc.. but getting there.
A question, the "D" shaped pieces that attach to the hinge end of the top rail, I'm guessing they are attached to the end of the rail then tacked to the door after the rail is fitted?

Still a bit more fitting to do.

Thanks,
robj

Door #2 [A bit better fit]

[robj]

For Continuity of the build thread;
Seems like just yesterday but it's been 4 months since I started on the doors. Mostly metal working/ panel beating [with a week or two break for radiators]
Time sure flies when you're having fun.

Normally I would just post this in the build thread but I though it could be interesting enough to post separately considering what an issue hinges seem to be.
The door timbers are installed, [but not yet nailed as everything is coming back apart for seal coating] and after considerable fiddling fit quite well
Decided I was going to follow the recommendations for various reinforcements as TC Forever-More, which all seem to make a lot of sense.

One was the door hinge reinforcement which reportedly makes the door into "one big hinge". A piece of 1/8" x 1 -1/8 x 30" steel bar was bent to fit the inside of the timbers at the top, bottom and hinge timber. Obviously the hinge bolt holes will also need to be drilled for bolts after fitting.
The holes in the bar were drilled first, [a few more than in the book] and heating and bending the steel was exciting as once bent difficult to un-bend neatly.
[The quirky bend at the bottom of the second door really fought me- first one went fine]

Anyway, M.Sherrell was right. it makes the door into one substantial solid feeling unit.

A bit more work but glad I did it. The second door still needs the steel fitted and everything disassembled and coated, re-installed and nailed but moving along.

[Photos Here. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61176

robj