TC Radiator hose leaks

[Steve Simmons]

I have a bad habit of repeating "freeze plug" when I hear it. I ordinarily refer to them as core plugs. I never use Welch plug although for the dome type (but not for the cup type) it's technically correct. If you say Welch plug here in the US, most people will have no clue what you're talking about. Then again, probably half of the people here wouldn't know the term core plug either!

Steel plugs are stronger, but I figure you don't need the strength on a TC since there is no pressure in the cooling system. You could probably just epoxy them in without even expanding and never loose a plug. Not that I recommend it...

[Duncan M]

Expansion plug is what they have been called for a long time in British car circles. The term Welch, core or freeze plugs will do. To properly seal they need to be properly expanded, by pounding them flat. Technically, a "ground expansion plug" is an improvement on the standard Welch plug? See top here:
http://www.hubbardspring.com/subcategor ... on%20plugs

To remove one (assuming no epoxy has been used) the dish type can simply be center-punched well below flat and they will pop right out without needing to pierce it or pry it out. Sometimes they will pop out or leak if the block freezes and they have not been properly flattened (expanded). Maybe Jeff's problem is poorly installed expansion plugs?

Pics show a Sprite engine, but it is the same design as the XPAG where the plugs fit. Pics showing brass colored plugs, which have not been "expanded" yet.

[Robert Brennan]

Thank you Duncan - great pics and link. Don't need them now, but if I live long enough, I'll go to Tom Lange here in Maine.
Bob Brennan
Freeport, ME
MGTC7794EXU

[JeffMoore64]

Good evening all,
Been on a little vacation so my response has been delayed.
Thanks everyone for the posts. So it looks like I need to pull off all the carb and manifold to get at this side of the engine. Probably need to look at these plugs with a flash light and mirror to see if I can see water coming out the plugs. By looking at the few that are exposed, it seems reasonable that the original plugs are leaking. Lots of rust and corrosion on them. I'm debating how far I should go with this. Pull the engine and do a total rebuild or just fix the plugs so I can enjoy driving it? And if I pull the engine then I might as well start a total strip down and rebuild of the body too. Not sure if I want to go that far. And there is the cost considerations of a) rebuilding the engine and b) restoring the whole car. Anyone have ball park figures for each of these items in terms of time and cost?
Jeff

[Tim Jackson]

The cost/time will depend on what standard restoration are you aiming for, and how much work will be farmed out to specialists. When asked about costs (at shows), I always suggest buying a restored car, rather than buying one to restore. But, where’s the fun/satisfaction in that? A ‘frame up’ restoration will undoubtedly cost more, and take longer than expected. According to this source, TCs currently sell in US for about $22-£39k for a car in good or excellent condition, or $55k for concours. These figures only partially reflect restoration costs.

[frenchblatter]

The restoration of TC10178, which had laid in a lock-up garage for 48 years cost more in parts, panel repairs and painting than it's worth. The parts prices were going up by the week.

But, I didn't do it for profit.

The one satisfaction I have over buying a restored car is I know every nut and bolt on my car and, as I've done all the mechanical work I know it has been done correctly.

[JeffMoore64]

Norman,

I've looked at you site and restoration photos. Fine job you did considering what you started with!! Here is what I'm starting with.

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[frenchblatter]

Jeff, looks good, just a few weeks work then

[Duncan M]

Did you find the leak source, Jeff? Those expansion plugs do look dodgy. Where your engine has black paint, mine has white from very long ago. Looks like the car is mechanically quite original.

[ian theobald]

Hi Jeff. Ive seen too many cars that have been taken off the road with the intention of full restoration.
Yrs later you still see them with concours chassis and the rest still in bits or the owner given up or passes away.
Just get out and enjoy the car.
By all means repair what needs doing

My car has been an on going project for as long as I have owned it .
It will never be a trophy winner or belong with the white glove brigade but slowly improving.
I am fortuate that it runs sweet .
As for the welsh plugs as we call over here in Oz ,is it possible to get to the rear ones by removing floor behind as I did many yrs ago on a Riley I owned.
When replacing put red Stag around edges.
Not sure what Stag had init but was not silicone.
When I pull things apart like to give a frsh coat of paint and clean up/ polish and then makes easier to spot future problems

Good luck and enjoy your car.

[ian theobald]

Hi Jeff.to give you an idea of how a grubby engine etc can be transformed.
Some time ago I posted about Heat Shield and while fitting replaced radiator hoses .thermostat etc and fuel lines.
While at it removed radiator and then grill.
When you pull things apart you sure end up deeper than intended.
Anyway thete are pics attached and ended up with a very presentable and clean under bonnett area and the peace of mind of no overheating .
Your car looks a similar condition to how I started.

[frenchblatter]

We used to use "red lead" on core/welch/freeze plugs. I think it was red hermatite mixed with powdered lead but Wiki reckons it's ... https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/red_lead

Anyway this stuff was mixed into a paste and applied to the edges, the plug placed and whacked in the centre to spread it.

That was in the early 60's, probably not allowed now.

[JeffMoore64]

Okay I found the bad plug!

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Does anyone happen to know what size it is?
Also how does one go about removing said plug?

Oh and thanks again for all the feedback.

Ian, going to take your advice and not tear it down, really enjoy driving it more than fixing it!

Jeff

[Steve Simmons]

35mm for the small ones, 48mm for the large ones. Hammer it in the center until it collapses, then punch (do not drill) a hole in the center and pry it out.

[JeffMoore64]

Hereis what it looks like all cleaned up.

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Looks like some kind of epoxy was used to try and seal it.
You can see the water running out the bottom go the middle plug.

New plug on the way. Along with all the associated gaskets that were visible.

Let ya know when I start it or hit another snag!!

Jeff

[JeffMoore64]

Oh boy! Popped out that center welsh plug and this is what I found...

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Please tell me that the rest of the engine doesn't look like this...
I'm thinking, shop vac it out then clean it down to metal, put the Red Lead stuff in there and bang the new plug in.

However, from the looks of that gunk, I probably need to power wash or such all the water areas and am uncertain how best to go about it.

Please advise oh great ones!!

[stephen stierman]

Looks like the radiator and block need a serious flush. You might want to pull a hose off and see if you can flush all that out. Not to frighten, but look at the casting above that core plug you removed, that is not a crack is it?

[ian theobald]

I heard that an old speedo cable on end of a drill inserted into engine block can clean out galleries of muck.
Has any one heard of this method.Think modern chemical cleaning and then make sure Glycol added but we use over here in Oz as a coolant

[Steve Simmons]

I think that's a casting seam, not a crack. At least I hope so!

I'd boil out the radiator and flush / reverse flush the system. You can get cleaner to run through it as well. And I'd definitely remove the cylinder head rear plate to see what it looks like in there.

[JeffMoore64]

Steve is right, it is a casting seam. Picture is up side down.
The engine is still in the car so don't think I can get the back off very easily...
As for a flush, I do have a couple hoses off right now. The three that connect to the branch pipe are disconnected as the branch pipe was another source of leaks.
I'm thinking stick a shop vac or some tubing to vent the bulk of the water away from things like the starter etc, then spray water into the hose connections as best I can.
I don't have a big compressor, bit is there an attachment that would increase the water pressure? Kind of like a pressure washer? Then of course the issue becomes how much pressure is enough? I've seen an industrial pressure washer cut a 2X4 in half. So probably not that much pressure...

Also I was thinking about using a Demel tool with that tiny wire brush to clean out the welch plug hole. The wire bristles do come off so I'll need to flush the engine out once done. Any better ideas on how to clean the flange or what ever it is called so the plug seats nice?

Jeff