Re: Alloy XPAG blocks...1500 CC

taterry@aol.com · Post by **taterry@aol.com** » Thu Mar 02, 2000 11:38 am

Yes, its possible...who might be interested?
Terry

Lindsey Parsons · Post by **Lindsey Parsons** » Thu Mar 02, 2000 11:06 pm

I seemed to have missed something here. If you are asking who would be interested in securing an XPAG alloy block.....count me in. For that matter, I could use any block at all, even an entire engine would be welcome!!!

Best,
Lindsey
48 TC #4771

Ray McCrary · Post by **Ray McCrary** » Thu Mar 02, 2000 11:06 pm

Hello all,
Would not an alloy block need to be re-engineered for strength?
Best,
Ray

Carl Cederstrand · Post by **Carl Cederstrand** » Fri Mar 03, 2000 8:33 am

Aficionados Arise,

I suspect our Mr. Ray McCrary is quite correct. The block would have to be re-engineered to allow for the lower strength of aluminum.

As a more pedestrian project, is there a fire breathing M.E. who would like to undertake the further development of the Runyan engine (DOHC head on an XPAG/XPEG block)? I will eventually finish an article on this engine for The NEMGTR and when finished the Schultes plan the sell the engine with all its associated gear. The article in the 'Sacred Octagon' will serve as a source of technical information. One Runyan engine exists along with a set of spare castings, engineering drawings, production tooling, and a mountain of patterns. See 'Hot Rod' magazine, March 1956. The whole works is presently stored in my garage and hallway. The head is pure Offenhauser and is certainly the most beautiful set of alloy castings a T-Series owner will ever see. From my point of view, it is unfortunate that Runyan, Zimmerman, and Timbs were directed toward an all out racing engine. When the MGA was released in 1956, all development was halted and everything went into storage. This interrupted project would require much additional engineering time to convert the present engine into a street engine.

Best wishes, Carl Cederstrand / Orange, California

mrbadger · Post by **mrbadger** » Fri Mar 03, 2000 9:25 am

Aluminum block? Roller bearings up front? Double ball bearings at the rear? Nissan steering box? Aluminum plated headlamp reflectors? At what point does your "vintage" MG become a replica of itself?

I have driven my TC over 250,000 miles during 40 years of ownership, all replacement parts have always been identical to or very similar to those that it left the factory with and it still works just fine! A well set-up original TC will drive remarkably well. All you guys quit being anal retentive babies about your cars and get the hell out and DRIVE the God damned things like they were meant to be. You want a "perfect" God damned car? go out and buy yourself a Porsche.

Derek Durst, Newport RI.
TC-10009 in daily use for 40 years.

PMS GB Ltd · Post by **PMS GB Ltd** » Fri Mar 03, 2000 4:45 pm

Message text written by Carl Cederstrand
I will eventually finish an article on this engine for The NEMGTR

Carl - could you please also publish the article here? - few of us have access to the NEMGTR

Regards,
Clive

PMS GB Ltd · Post by **PMS GB Ltd** » Fri Mar 03, 2000 4:49 pm

Message text written by mrbadger
Aluminum block? Roller bearings up front? Double ball bearings at the rear? Nissan steering box? Aluminum plated headlamp reflectors? At what point does your "vintage" MG become a replica of itself?
-------------
You want a "perfect" God damned car? go out and buy yourself a Porsche.

Derek,

A Porche??--- Perfect!!!! Now there's no need to be contentious..........

Clive
(Who always preferred Ferraris with all their faults)

mrbadger · Post by **mrbadger** » Sat Mar 04, 2000 3:21 am

It is certainly not my intent to attack TATerry or anyone else personally and I will be very pleased to make some positive comments based on my 40 years experience driving a TC. Back around the time that I bought my TC which was the spring of 1960, it was not at all uncommon to see TCs, TDs, even pre-war cars in daily everyday use or parked on the street much as you might see an MGB in use today, I did a little racing and I used to hang out at the old Thompson race track in the N.E. corner of Connecticut and others, I remember there were a couple of guys who had put Ford V-8 60s into their TCs, other popular conversions were Triumph and Volvo engines. While these cars mostly went faster than the stock ones, I noticed that these well intentioned attempts at "improvement" ultimately hastened these "better" cars arrival at the local scrap yard, I well remember the rows of butchered TCs and TDs at Stuckey's junkyard in Staten Island, NY during the mid 1960s, of course, some of them were eventually restored back to their original configuration also. The point that I am trying to make here is that by re-designing/re-engineering/updating/modernizing/ a major component of one's MG, while I'm sure one's intentions are honorable, just as were the intentions of those guys "updating" and "improving" their cars with V8-60s and while the car may seem to be better off for a while, in the end, you will have something that is certainly no longer an MG and probably less than an MG. I would like to make it clear at this point that I am not just addressing the issue of aluminum blocks but also to all the other mods I have been reading about such as mods to wheel bearings, spindles, steering, lighting, electrical, timber framing, and others.

I don't believe that we actually own our old cars, I believe that we are really acting as temporary custodians to a little piece of history and as such, it behooves us to maintain the original design integrity and not to alter it on personal whim or to satisfy an ego. I believe we owe that to history and to the future "owners" of our cars.

Derek Durst

TATERRY@aol.com wrote:
Derek, you know we've done business on Ebay....and recently...however if you are not interested in a alloy block, why not just continue to lurk on the list...why do you have to attack me? You have never surfaced before on this list...why now?

Instead, why don't you say some positive things MG wise so that we all might learn from your 40 years of TC driving? I bought my first MG in 1957, TC in 1962...I know whats out there...and FYI, I've had a LOT of interest in the possibility of a new bare block...so just back off.

Terry

Skip Kelsey · Post by **Skip Kelsey** » Sat Mar 04, 2000 4:03 am

Derek:

I think that we went thru this thread with a gentleman from Cape Town. I dont think anyone has the right to be critical of someone elses way of thinking about their car, and its mods. I like the saying "Safety Fast", which was coined by MG in the early days. Those were the folks that were always striving for improvements to their cars. I have owned my "T" MG since 1960. I have made several mods to it, so that its reliabilty will be enhanced. I have put 128,000 miles on it, and itrs a long way from the "junkyard". This thing about being custodians, is in my opinion, a lot of horse dung. It is my car, and by god I will drive it and maintain to my likes. Lets have more positive input please!!!

Cheers:

Skip Kelsey.....................

mrbadger · Post by **mrbadger** » Sat Mar 04, 2000 5:08 am

Greetings Skip.
Let me clarify by saying that, certainly, you or anyone else has every right to modify his or her own car in any way that he or she sees fit but please, lets understand that, once modified, it will no longer be an MG. Now I'm not talking about precisely the exact right original color or precisely the exact original size of the rear window, (although these things are also important), I'm talking about the kind of radical alterations that I have seen recently discussed such as a radical change in the material of which the engine block is made or installation of a Nissan steering box, or a re-engineering of a portion of the suspension system. I have a great appreciation for a really good hot rod, in many ways it is more difficult to come up with a truly successful hot rod than it is to do a proper restoration. (I've done both), but let's understand the difference. Once the original, factory, mechanical design integrity of the car has been breached, it may be a wonderful and a very fine car indeed, and it may or may not still look like and MG, but it is NOT an MG.

Derek Durst

Andreas Pichler · Post by **Andreas Pichler** » Sat Mar 04, 2000 6:32 am

Hmmm...I understand Mr Badger. But on the other hand, I have a certain feeling while, using a classic car. You are driving it. You exactly know how to improve this special car. You cant withstand...aluminium cylinder hand, improved shock absorbers...you are buying everything MOSS will sell you.

Then you have the perfect car. But its no more a classic car. Therefore you buy another, old unrestored classic car...vicious circle. My receipe? You need two cars, at least. I have an MGTD, pretty original, well restored (John Davis/Bob Luebbert). This is my claasic car. No modifications. For every day use, there is an MGA, 5 speed box and all the stuff. Possible to build it back. And if I want to have really much power - there is a HERTZ car rental at every airport ;-) To become serious: If a modification is re-buildable - why not? Otherwise - buy a modern car. (These PORSCHES or so - buy the way, did any gentleman studied the list of the LE JOG gold medal winners...)?

Regards,
Andreas

Skip Kelsey · Post by **Skip Kelsey** » Sat Mar 04, 2000 6:36 am

Derek:

You certainly have a right to your opinion, and can do or not do anything that you want to your car. But to flatly state that if I improve the steering, by installing a Datsun steering box in a TC, then it is no longer an MG is laughable. I agree that major engine swaps and the like are not the way to go, but to make the car safer to drive is acceptable. I do not feel that this will turn it into a "hot rod".

Cheers;
Skip.....................

mrbadger · Post by **mrbadger** » Sat Mar 04, 2000 7:04 am

Why stop with the Datsun steering box? If safety is your ultimate goal, I can think of lots of changes you could make! How about anti-lock brakes, airbags, collapsible steering column, disc brakes with power assist, lo-pro radial tires, but if you go that far, you might as well just bolt on a Camaro front sub frame, a chrome Jag IRS unit and drop in a small block! Hey, what the hell, you could still call it an MG if you want to, I don't care.

Happy motoring! Derek

David Edgar · Post by **David Edgar** » Sat Mar 04, 2000 7:06 am

Have read the go around on Derek's (Mr. Badger) comments and thought I would throw my two cents in.

I read with great admiration the note from Derek about his 40 year enjoyment of his TC. Yes they are great fun to drive and will go on and on with proper care and maintance. However, I see nothing wrong with hot rodding it up. The early TC owners had at them right away. Pull off that restricting air cleaner and put in a hotter coil. A 3/4 race cam helped and so did boring it out. The Tomkins Steering Kit was a popular addition for a reason as were Alfin drums. Tricking them out was as much an enjoyment as was driving them.

Now a purist may not enjoy doing that and that is OK also. I think everyone enjoys their TC in a different way. To some (and I dont understand them) their enjoyment is to fondle the parts in the garage for umteem years just thinking of what it will look like once it is put together. I personally enjoy the driving and while I dont use it as much as Derek, I dont mind jumping in the TC and taking it out for several hundred miles on a weekend or just taking it to the grocery store once in a while. I also don't mind putting in roller bearings or even an aluminum block. Would I put in a Datsun steering box? I thought about it, but opted for fixing up the original although I see nothing wrong with putting in the Datsun box if it increases you enjoyment. Everyone has their limits as to what they will do to enjoy the car and as long as they enjoy it that is great. It may not make sense to the rest of us but if we are having so much fun with our own TCs then who cares.

As to the being the temporary caretakers of the car (part of history) that is fine if someone wants to do that. Modified cars are also part of history, "32 Ford hot rods for instance. Would a caretaker of history want to take a cherry hot rod (that may or may not drive well) and bring it back to original manufacter specks? I hope not. I love that part of history.

AJChalmers@aol.com · Post by **AJChalmers@aol.com** » Sat Mar 04, 2000 7:37 am

If it was an 8c2300 Alfa I could understand the pur sang thing, but these cars of ours, to keep driving in California anyway, had better be up to it, and that means freeway speeds and safety.

Jim Silva · Post by **Jim Silva** » Sat Mar 04, 2000 8:02 am

I can only hope that you can have a more open mind when the doctor recommends a pacemaker for you or someone that you care for, get a grip they are only a bunch of assembled parts, they really don't have a soul!!

Jim Silva · Post by **Jim Silva** » Sat Mar 04, 2000 8:02 am

I can only hope that you can have a more open mind when the doctor recommends a pacemaker for you or someone that you care for, get a grip they are only a bunch of assembled parts, they really don't have a soul!!

jim silva

Skip Kelsey · Post by **Skip Kelsey** » Sat Mar 04, 2000 8:15 am

Derek:

I can only say that you enjoy another 40 years of driving your MG "custodial unit". If thats your bag,do it. I cant argue with that. But, let the rest of us "hot rodders" enjoy are cars as we like without disdainful remarks about our purity. I do believe that it is all of our goal to drive and enjoy these cars as we see fit. Lets do it in true comradship and peace.

Press on:

Andy Bradley · Post by **Andy Bradley** » Sat Mar 04, 2000 8:59 am

I nominate Skip for Grand Poo-Bah, due to his extreme sense of sense.
--
Cheers....Andy B.
Bradley Restoration

mrbadger · Post by **mrbadger** » Sat Mar 04, 2000 9:00 am

I know what you mean Andreas.
I have about ten cars right now, everything from a 1925 Delage with a boat-tailed skiff body to a 1965 Aston Martin DB-5 Vantage spec coupe (just like James Bonds car but minus the gadgets). One of the cars in the middle is a hot rod 1934 Alvis with a 3.4 liter Jag engine and a bunch of other stuff that I built but, the thing is I started off with nothing but an abandoned junk chassis. It's these guys that start off with a perfectly good basically original car and bastardize the poor old thing in a misguided attempt to make it into something it ain't and lose track of the fact that a vintage car is not SUPPOSED to drive and handle like a 1998 BMW that bug the Hell out of me.

Derek

MG T-ABC

MG T-ABC