PETER FOR PRESIDENT!!!!!Peter wrote:
Consider that it is immaterial to a lot of us who enjoy our cars without much concern for the fruitless pursuit of that "original matching number engine", the "original unaltered frame", and the "original Makers Plate". For most of the surviving TABCs this kind of nicety is probably unrealistic for all the reasons that have been shared.
Chassis Numbers
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Gene Gillam
- Posts: 1275
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:52 pm
- Location: Saucier, MS
Re: chassis No.
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davjak@aol.com
- Posts: 142
- Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2004 12:44 pm
Re: chassis No.
All of my MG TCs TC5228, TC5041 & TC4326 were registered from new by there engine serial number and not the number on the frame!! I have copies of the original title/registration from new and they were all registered via the engine numbers from new...
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Chip Hellie
- Posts: 441
- Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2002 11:41 am
Re: There's a right way to do most things
Hi Mark,
You have the chassis for 3409. It would be unfair and ridiculous to suggest that Mrs. Meismer renumber her car. The "essence" and the continuous history of TC 3409 still remains with her car.
In reality you only have a part of it, although an important one. Legally you would have to title it as an "assembled vehicle" and keep the reciepts for all the parts you pile together. Since her car still exists, you can never really 100%own TC3409.
Several on this list could care less about matching numbers, but when things like this come up, It proves the better car is a matching numbered car.
I bought a prewar Mercedes Convertible that had been unregesterd for 30 plus years in Oregon.
When I took the Calif. pink in to DMV it turns out that there were TWO other MB Cabs sporting my ID numbers. One the engine, one the chassis! People are a little shady in California perhaps.
You don't want the same thing happening on the TC. Find out what the other car is using for ID numbers, and if they are using the Engine# then you could use the chassis#, but shouldn't claim it to be that car!
Chip Hellie
You have the chassis for 3409. It would be unfair and ridiculous to suggest that Mrs. Meismer renumber her car. The "essence" and the continuous history of TC 3409 still remains with her car.
In reality you only have a part of it, although an important one. Legally you would have to title it as an "assembled vehicle" and keep the reciepts for all the parts you pile together. Since her car still exists, you can never really 100%own TC3409.
Several on this list could care less about matching numbers, but when things like this come up, It proves the better car is a matching numbered car.
I bought a prewar Mercedes Convertible that had been unregesterd for 30 plus years in Oregon.
When I took the Calif. pink in to DMV it turns out that there were TWO other MB Cabs sporting my ID numbers. One the engine, one the chassis! People are a little shady in California perhaps.
You don't want the same thing happening on the TC. Find out what the other car is using for ID numbers, and if they are using the Engine# then you could use the chassis#, but shouldn't claim it to be that car!
Chip Hellie
Re: There's a right way to do most things
Chip,
I don't think it will be up to Mark to pick the number his car is eventually registered under. Just for grins, I've copied the first part of the instruction form for a VIN Verification (California):
*****
INSTRUCTIONS FOR VEHICLE VERIFIER PURSUANT TO SECTION 11305 CVC, IT IS AN UNLAWFUL ACT TO SUBMIT TO THE DEPARTMENT ANY DOCUMENT WITHOUT PHYSICALLY INSPECTING AND COMPARING IDENTIFYING NUMBERS ON THE VEHICLE.
COMPLETE THE VERIFICATION OF VEHICLE, REG. 31 AS FOLLOWS:
LICENSE PLATES ON VEHICLE
Mark the appropriate box.
LICENSE PLATE NUMBER
Record license plate number, name of state issuing plate, and registration expiration date.
VEHICLE IDENTIFICATION NUMBER (VIN)
Inspect and record on the vehicle verification form, the actual VIN that appears on the vehicle.
After the VIN is recorded on the form, compare it to the VIN that appears on the other documents presented. Note any discrepancy on the verification form.
When inspection of a VIN reveals evidence of tampering, alteration or obliteration of the number, immediately notify the nearest Department of Motor Vehicles, Investigations Section.
In those instances where a vehicle has a die stamped VIN on the frame, inspect and record the VIN on the frame rather than the VIN on a plate. For example: A sedan has a plate in the forward luggage compartment that bears the VIN. In addition, the VIN is die stamped into the frame under the rear seat. For the purpose of verification, always inspect and record the die stamped VIN on the frame rather than the plate whenever the vehicle has a die stamped VIN.
*****
They also have special rules for vehicles that are restored from junk or salvage, which require a visit to the CHP. That has been an effort to get away from local police officers (generally untrained) doing these inspections to prevent the type of discrepancies that have been amply documented in the discussions on this topic.
Joyce
I don't think it will be up to Mark to pick the number his car is eventually registered under. Just for grins, I've copied the first part of the instruction form for a VIN Verification (California):
*****
INSTRUCTIONS FOR VEHICLE VERIFIER PURSUANT TO SECTION 11305 CVC, IT IS AN UNLAWFUL ACT TO SUBMIT TO THE DEPARTMENT ANY DOCUMENT WITHOUT PHYSICALLY INSPECTING AND COMPARING IDENTIFYING NUMBERS ON THE VEHICLE.
COMPLETE THE VERIFICATION OF VEHICLE, REG. 31 AS FOLLOWS:
LICENSE PLATES ON VEHICLE
Mark the appropriate box.
LICENSE PLATE NUMBER
Record license plate number, name of state issuing plate, and registration expiration date.
VEHICLE IDENTIFICATION NUMBER (VIN)
Inspect and record on the vehicle verification form, the actual VIN that appears on the vehicle.
After the VIN is recorded on the form, compare it to the VIN that appears on the other documents presented. Note any discrepancy on the verification form.
When inspection of a VIN reveals evidence of tampering, alteration or obliteration of the number, immediately notify the nearest Department of Motor Vehicles, Investigations Section.
In those instances where a vehicle has a die stamped VIN on the frame, inspect and record the VIN on the frame rather than the VIN on a plate. For example: A sedan has a plate in the forward luggage compartment that bears the VIN. In addition, the VIN is die stamped into the frame under the rear seat. For the purpose of verification, always inspect and record the die stamped VIN on the frame rather than the plate whenever the vehicle has a die stamped VIN.
*****
They also have special rules for vehicles that are restored from junk or salvage, which require a visit to the CHP. That has been an effort to get away from local police officers (generally untrained) doing these inspections to prevent the type of discrepancies that have been amply documented in the discussions on this topic.
Joyce
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Mark Hineline
- Posts: 87
- Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:33 am
Re: There's a right way to do most things
Chip,
The people with short attention spans want this thread to be over, and frankly so do I because nothing bothers me more than to read "enough already" messages.
I've already addressed everything you say here, probably several times over. The things you mention are the reason that I was willing to go by the alias that Gene Gillam was willing to provide me.
I also know that nothing I'm addressing in this thread has anything to do with having fun or enjoying your TC. Peter Roberts is absolutely correct about that, and wrote a fine essay. But if I can't register this car, I will never get to have any fun in it, of any kind, ever, when it's finished.
People from California, where I live, have sent messages saying that their cars are registered and titled by engine number, but Joyce Edgar has kindly provided chapter-and-verse of what the law is now. DMV regulations here are driven by smog regulations; that's why they are so fussy. The regulations are designed to prevent people from dropping a '75 model engine into a '79 car and taking a waiver on smog testing.
Because that's the law here, I may not have the choice to leave well enough alone in Iowa. Mrs. Meismer's plate and paperwork may say she has TC 3409, but her frame is not TC 3409.
I quote from Sherrell: "Car ID plate on the n/s of battery box, carries the car number (TC/....) WHICH CORRESPONDS TO THE CHASSIS NO. and the engine No. (XPAG ....)." The car number in the Meismer car does not correspond to the chassis number. That is not my doing or my fault.
I do not wish to criticize the late Rolland Meismer. I am aware that he had friends on the list, and I bent over backwards at the start of this thread to be as gracious as I could be. But there are three things he could have done, and that anyone in similar circumstances should do. The first, and best, would have been to repair the frame TC 3409 and keep it with the car. The damage to it is minimal.
The second option would have been to go ahead and swap frames, then do the rest of the job: change the plate on the car and the registration. There are perfectly good excuses not to do that, one of which would be (for instance) that if the new frame had a much higher number, Rolland would then have had to explain to the OP why his car had a veneered dash instead of Rexine.
The third option would have been to do the frame swap and deface the frame, making it usable for repairs but not as the foundation for another numbered car.
Because he did none of these things, I now have the frame. I bought it legally, and I sweated the five weeks it took to get it from Chicago to San Diego via a shipper whose equipment was unreliable and who communicated with me as little as possible.
I'm fully aware that the frame is not the "soul" of TC 3409, and that's what you are getting at in this message. I'm sympathetic to that problem, and I've expressed my sympathy and my willingness to devise a work-around to preserve the soul of the car where it rightly belongs, in Iowa, with Mrs. Meismer. Unfortunately, none of the work-arounds really work.
So let's have done with this, for the sake of the people who can't find their delete keys.
Mark
TC 3409
The people with short attention spans want this thread to be over, and frankly so do I because nothing bothers me more than to read "enough already" messages.
I've already addressed everything you say here, probably several times over. The things you mention are the reason that I was willing to go by the alias that Gene Gillam was willing to provide me.
I also know that nothing I'm addressing in this thread has anything to do with having fun or enjoying your TC. Peter Roberts is absolutely correct about that, and wrote a fine essay. But if I can't register this car, I will never get to have any fun in it, of any kind, ever, when it's finished.
People from California, where I live, have sent messages saying that their cars are registered and titled by engine number, but Joyce Edgar has kindly provided chapter-and-verse of what the law is now. DMV regulations here are driven by smog regulations; that's why they are so fussy. The regulations are designed to prevent people from dropping a '75 model engine into a '79 car and taking a waiver on smog testing.
Because that's the law here, I may not have the choice to leave well enough alone in Iowa. Mrs. Meismer's plate and paperwork may say she has TC 3409, but her frame is not TC 3409.
I quote from Sherrell: "Car ID plate on the n/s of battery box, carries the car number (TC/....) WHICH CORRESPONDS TO THE CHASSIS NO. and the engine No. (XPAG ....)." The car number in the Meismer car does not correspond to the chassis number. That is not my doing or my fault.
I do not wish to criticize the late Rolland Meismer. I am aware that he had friends on the list, and I bent over backwards at the start of this thread to be as gracious as I could be. But there are three things he could have done, and that anyone in similar circumstances should do. The first, and best, would have been to repair the frame TC 3409 and keep it with the car. The damage to it is minimal.
The second option would have been to go ahead and swap frames, then do the rest of the job: change the plate on the car and the registration. There are perfectly good excuses not to do that, one of which would be (for instance) that if the new frame had a much higher number, Rolland would then have had to explain to the OP why his car had a veneered dash instead of Rexine.
The third option would have been to do the frame swap and deface the frame, making it usable for repairs but not as the foundation for another numbered car.
Because he did none of these things, I now have the frame. I bought it legally, and I sweated the five weeks it took to get it from Chicago to San Diego via a shipper whose equipment was unreliable and who communicated with me as little as possible.
I'm fully aware that the frame is not the "soul" of TC 3409, and that's what you are getting at in this message. I'm sympathetic to that problem, and I've expressed my sympathy and my willingness to devise a work-around to preserve the soul of the car where it rightly belongs, in Iowa, with Mrs. Meismer. Unfortunately, none of the work-arounds really work.
So let's have done with this, for the sake of the people who can't find their delete keys.
Mark
TC 3409
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joecurto@aol.com
- Posts: 1624
- Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2000 7:42 pm
Re: vapor lock and chassis numbers
Steve glad to hear you got the "Bug" after reading The Red Car (for those not familiar it was a kids book written in 1954 by Don Stanford and it revolved around a kid in Colorado disobeying his parents and piecing together 2 wrecked TC's and his association with an ex-patriot Frenchman ex Buggatti driver, etc.) It was a fun book and still is years later (sort of a predecessor of The Last Open Road)
I had Mr. Stanford personalize a copy for me prior to his death a few years ago, I heard he was quite a character and had been a guest of honor at one of the USA Gathering of the Faithful. He also wrote some pulp detective stories in the Mickey Spliane vein and did other kids books.
The Red Car is re published in hard cover by Buccaneer Books Inc.
www.BuccaneerBooks.com.
It makes for fun reading given the fact there is an in the streets road rally with lots of contemporary (now vintage cars). One of the copies I had had an updated cover with a 911 Porsche trailing badly a TC.
Joe Curto
I had Mr. Stanford personalize a copy for me prior to his death a few years ago, I heard he was quite a character and had been a guest of honor at one of the USA Gathering of the Faithful. He also wrote some pulp detective stories in the Mickey Spliane vein and did other kids books.
The Red Car is re published in hard cover by Buccaneer Books Inc.
www.BuccaneerBooks.com.
It makes for fun reading given the fact there is an in the streets road rally with lots of contemporary (now vintage cars). One of the copies I had had an updated cover with a 911 Porsche trailing badly a TC.
Joe Curto
Re: chassis No.
Yup.Newsflash to list: Having mismatched chassis and plate numbers is not desirable. It's not a 'point of originality.' It's not an interesting custom feature.
It's a careless mistake.
Ray
Happy Ramahanakwannamas during the Mid winter solstice break...How's that for PC??
To heck with it...MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!!!
Re: There's a right way to do most things
"In those instances where a vehicle has a die stamped VIN on the frame, inspect and record the VIN on the frame rather than the VIN on a plate."
Sounds like the Meismer car needs to be re-registered. This doesn't change the history of the car....
Ray
Happy Ramahanakwannamas during the Mid winter solstice break...How's that for PC??
To heck with it...MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!!!
Sounds like the Meismer car needs to be re-registered. This doesn't change the history of the car....
Ray
Happy Ramahanakwannamas during the Mid winter solstice break...How's that for PC??
To heck with it...MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!!!
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david w bradley
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:36 am
Re: chassis No.
Hey Rolling,
I can assure you that there will be a lot of guys over here (UK) still interested in T's in, say, 20 years - me and my mates being just a few!!
Cheers,
Dave Bradley TA0822
I can assure you that there will be a lot of guys over here (UK) still interested in T's in, say, 20 years - me and my mates being just a few!!
Cheers,
Dave Bradley TA0822
----- Original Message -----
From: 1939mgtb
How many guys here think there will be an interest in these cars in, say, 20 years? I suspect that they may go the way of the Model T Ford......most all the guys who wanted one croaked.
Wot say you?????
Best,
Grenade Rolling Ray
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Dave Lodge
- Posts: 1097
- Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:44 am
- Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Re: chassis No.
Hello Thom, Snr. el Badgo,
Never forget...........the Triumph Mayflower, but never did!
Regards, David Lodge
Never forget...........the Triumph Mayflower, but never did!
Regards, David Lodge
From: mrbadger@comcast.net
Hulloo Thom
Rifling through my memory banks, was that the Triumph Renown that had been fitted with a Datsun (??) engine but had the original engine with it? In any event, in the immortal words of Dell Shannon, "Hats off to
Larry".
Badge
-------------- Original message --------------
From: LuckyFloridaLin@aol.com
Well Done;
O good and faithful Badger. My neighbor Larry has restored the Triumph Renown you got for him. Truly a work of art.
Tally Ho!
Thom Collins
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Chip Hellie
- Posts: 441
- Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2002 11:41 am
Re: chassis No.
Ray, Mark
Old Henry Ford was a smart SOB. He stamped the chassis # on top of the frame and then bolted the body on top of it on his model A Fords. He couldn't give a rats Arse about chassis vin #'s. He truly was thinking ahead....
Chip Hellie
--- 1939mgtb wrote:
Old Henry Ford was a smart SOB. He stamped the chassis # on top of the frame and then bolted the body on top of it on his model A Fords. He couldn't give a rats Arse about chassis vin #'s. He truly was thinking ahead....
Chip Hellie
--- 1939mgtb wrote:
Re: chassis No.
I'm surprised he bothered...if it cost anything extra, he wouldn't have even stamped them!
Ray
Happy Ramahanakwannamas during the Mid winter solstice break...How's that for PC??
To heck with it...MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!!!
Ray
Happy Ramahanakwannamas during the Mid winter solstice break...How's that for PC??
To heck with it...MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!!!
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Rothgene Roth
- Posts: 201
- Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:37 am
Re: chassis No.
He also stamped the VIN # of the flat head V8s on the transmission, the reason being when engine changes were made no re-registration was necessary.
Gene Roth
Gene Roth
Re: chassis No.
"He also stamped the VIN # of the flat head V8s on the transmission, the reason being when engine changes were made no re-registration was necessary."
And in Alabama prior to 1974, you didn't have a title to a car at all. You had a receipt showing you paid the license fee. Sort of like owning a horse.
What was our point?
Best,
Ray
Happy Ramahanakwannamas during the Mid winter solstice break...How's that for PC??
To heck with it...MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!!!
AW: [mg-tabc] Re: chassis No.
Hi Ray,
Here in Germany a traffic vehicle act. " StVZO " $ 59 was introduced on 1 Oct.1969. It says that all vehicle identification number had to be on the front right side. Many officers insisted that the number had to be punched on the on the Front right side. Some TC's were compelled to punch the number on the front right side. Now a days they give exemption to those car registered or built prior to 1969 Oct. and accept the original chassis number on the left front. They even demanded an VIN plate in Germen language to be fixed near to the original ID plate for Foreign cars.
Madhu
Here in Germany a traffic vehicle act. " StVZO " $ 59 was introduced on 1 Oct.1969. It says that all vehicle identification number had to be on the front right side. Many officers insisted that the number had to be punched on the on the Front right side. Some TC's were compelled to punch the number on the front right side. Now a days they give exemption to those car registered or built prior to 1969 Oct. and accept the original chassis number on the left front. They even demanded an VIN plate in Germen language to be fixed near to the original ID plate for Foreign cars.
Madhu
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Davidtasa@aol.com
- Posts: 148
- Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2001 8:41 pm
Re: AW: [mg-tabc] Re: chassis No.
Madhu is quite right. My TC has been registered in Germany for a very long time, and has the original VIN on the left side and also stamped additionally on the right, apparently for the German authorities. At least the one on the right is also TC 3896 and not TC 3409 ! (Grin - just kidding, Mark!)
David TC 3896
Bad Soden, Germany
David TC 3896
Bad Soden, Germany
Re: chassis No.
Well, it could be worse; the EU could have ruled that you have to have the VIN plates stamped in German, English, French, Flemmish, Polish, Czech and Arabic. And others....."Many officers insisted that the number had to be punched on the on the Front right side. Some TC's were compelled to punch the number on the front right side. Now a days they give exemption to those car registered or built prior to 1969 Oct. and accept the original chassis number on the left front. They even demanded an VIN plate in Germen language to be fixed near to the original ID plate for Foreign cars"
Count your blessings!
Best,
Ray
Happy Ramahanakwannamas during the Mid winter solstice break...How's that for PC??
To heck with it...MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!!!
-
Gordon Bruce Lawson
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:53 pm
chassis numbers
My Td came with no ownership and no key (they were in the same missing "file"). Anyway...went to the Dep't of Transportation office with a signed affidavit from a lawyer (the p/o) and his original bill of sale etc... all was accepted by the clerk... the problem she found was the Car Number... she kept wanting more numbers... I wouldn't add any more as that was just "wrong" (could have thrown in the XPAG etc and added them....but "arrghhh") Finally she called a "head office supervisor" and they chatted... I kept hearing "no, that's all...just the 5 numbers"...."yes, and on some kind of plate"...."yes, on the tool box of all things, not on the dashboard"....
Finally the two of them made me "promise" to go straight home and "engrave" the Car Number on the scuttle top so it could be seen through the windshield.... I of course promised....(yeah, right)...anyway... out I went with a nice new ownership with the Car Number only on it!!!!!
Finally the two of them made me "promise" to go straight home and "engrave" the Car Number on the scuttle top so it could be seen through the windshield.... I of course promised....(yeah, right)...anyway... out I went with a nice new ownership with the Car Number only on it!!!!!
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KEN PORTER
- Posts: 256
- Joined: Thu May 04, 2000 7:12 am
Re: chassis numbers
Gordon:
I had the same problem when first registering my TC in New York. I was told that my VIN couldn't possibly be correct and I should leave and come back with the correct number. This was after standing in line for an hour. With just as many people behind me as there was in front of me when I started waiting, the clerk soon knowing that he was about to have a riot on his hands as I was not about to give up my place at the window gave in and registered my car. When I moved to New Hampshire I was not questioned at all except that since my TC was not titled the VIN would have to be checked by the Police Department. I called them and they sent a squad car to my house within 10 minutes checked the VIN and completed the necessary form. No questions asked.
Ken TC 4147
I had the same problem when first registering my TC in New York. I was told that my VIN couldn't possibly be correct and I should leave and come back with the correct number. This was after standing in line for an hour. With just as many people behind me as there was in front of me when I started waiting, the clerk soon knowing that he was about to have a riot on his hands as I was not about to give up my place at the window gave in and registered my car. When I moved to New Hampshire I was not questioned at all except that since my TC was not titled the VIN would have to be checked by the Police Department. I called them and they sent a squad car to my house within 10 minutes checked the VIN and completed the necessary form. No questions asked.
Ken TC 4147
Re: chassis numbers
I drove the TB down to the Clerk's Office with no title but a bill of sale. The clerk gave me a form for the police to fill out. The policeman came out, and asked where was the number stamped in the frame. He took a look, read the number and filled out the form. His comment was, "Guess they didn't make too many of these things, huh?" I took the form into the Clerk's office, paid 'em $27, and walked out with a title and permanent plate.
Quick and easy.
Best,
Ray
Happy Ramahanakwannamas during the Mid winter solstice break...How's that for PC??
To heck with it...MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!!!
Quick and easy.
Best,
Ray
Happy Ramahanakwannamas during the Mid winter solstice break...How's that for PC??
To heck with it...MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!!!