Source of updated water pump?
Source of updated water pump?
This weekend I delved deep into my cooling system. New hoses, thermostat check on stovetop, search for corrosion. I have a number of old cars, always have worked on them myself, and one thing I do differently than many is I change out the coolant mix well before it "expires." I was always told a 50/50 mix of glycol coolant with pure or distilled water (or premix) will protect all metals well as long as it it not allowed to go bad, and that is exactly what I have found over the years. A commercial MG BBS site out of England claims no matter how well managed your coolant is, to expect corrosion and crud buildup wherever differing metals are present. No way to stop it, they say; Ph matters not in your coolant, it is only about salts they say, coolant is made up of salts and all salts expedite corrosion so be prepared by buying replcement parts before you find out you need them on the side of the road, at night, during an unexpected blizzrd. The 35 year PO of my TC had a similar philosophy on coolant as me, always kept it fresh, which explains why the original aluminum piece coming out of the head, just below the thermostat assembly, is original and pristine. I suppose all the PO's kept the coolant fresh, actually, as it would not take much time with expired caustic coolant to destroy that aluminum piece.
Though my TC does not run hot, occasionally it does probably get hotter than it could if I used one of the updated 6-blade impellors. Anyone know a source for a water pump with one of these? I prefer to avoid spending a huge amount for the racing grade 235 BP water pump (racemate or something such) being peddled on the BBS commercial site. It seems to me that one of the 6 blade impellers, properly mated to the water pump base, could avoid the traffic and idling heat-up to some extent that the 4 blade may not prevent well enough. Any thoughts or sources? Thanks so much.
Though my TC does not run hot, occasionally it does probably get hotter than it could if I used one of the updated 6-blade impellors. Anyone know a source for a water pump with one of these? I prefer to avoid spending a huge amount for the racing grade 235 BP water pump (racemate or something such) being peddled on the BBS commercial site. It seems to me that one of the 6 blade impellers, properly mated to the water pump base, could avoid the traffic and idling heat-up to some extent that the 4 blade may not prevent well enough. Any thoughts or sources? Thanks so much.
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Re: Source of updated water pump?
You may want to send your water pump to Butch Taras in California. He rebuilt my TD water pump with new seals and the 6 blade impeller about 3 years ago and it works well. Butch can tell you what he does and provide prices. My connection with Butch is as a satisfied customer!
I have two contacts for him: rbtaras@sbcglobal.net or mgyowner@yahoo.com
Mike Marini
I have two contacts for him: rbtaras@sbcglobal.net or mgyowner@yahoo.com
Mike Marini
Thank you!
Mike Marini
Sheboygan, WI
Mike Marini
Sheboygan, WI
Re: Source of updated water pump?
I have always heard good things about Butch Taras, and if you have an original style rebuildable pump I would want one of his impeller's. But, it looks like Moss (USA & Europe) now carries only the 6 vane bronze impeller attached to their non-rebuildable type pump for $70.
http://www.mossmotors.com/graphics/prod ... 34-010.pdf
http://www.mossmotors.com/graphics/prod ... 34-010.pdf
- Richard Michell
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Re: Source of updated water pump?
XPAGnut, where do you live? Do you need antifreeze in your cooling system? If not, I would suggest you consider using just a corrosion inhibitor. The main ingredient in traditional coolants is ethylene glycol and it transfers heat less efficiently than plain water. Engines run hotter with it. Hope this doesn't start a coolant war.
Re: Source of updated water pump?
Gosh, right in front of me in the Moss catalog! That must be a new product for them, that 6 blade pump. Of course it was not brought up in the very lengthy discussion on the commercial BBS site, as I reckon Moss is not their sponsor. Richard, where I live in the mountains it gets up to 105 F on a rare occasion. 90's are typical for summer hot ones, and I have driven the TC with spirit well in the 90's. I only ever use a 50/50 mix of whatever comes out of the latest Prestone bottle. I don't think the minute amount less cooling transfer from a 50/50 mix is significant enough for me to give a second thought, because the car does not overheat, but other's may be interested in what anti corrosion product you suggest.
- Richard Michell
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Re: Source of updated water pump?
XPAGnut, my question was whether or not you need freeze protection. How low do your ambients go?
Unfortunately the effect of a 50/50 mix of ethylene glycol/water on heat transfer is not minute. The heat transfer coefficient from a hot surface to the fluid is approximately halved compared with straight water. Also, the heat capacity of the fluid is reduced by about 15% and the viscosity is increased by about a third. This link gives some data on these latter effects. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethyl ... d_146.html.
IMHO if a cooling system is not pressurized then the use of glycol-based coolant is all negative as far as engine cooling is concerned. The only reason to use it is for freeze protection. In a pressurized system the elevation of boiling point that glycol gives can be exploited, hence its widespread use in "modern" cars.
If you do use it then it is essential to refresh it regularly (as you do). Glycol itself actually increases corrosion in comparison with soft water. It must have corrosion inhibitors added to it. These are consumed in use and so the coolant must be renewed at regular intervals. Similarly, it should not be diluted below about 25%.
Unfortunately the effect of a 50/50 mix of ethylene glycol/water on heat transfer is not minute. The heat transfer coefficient from a hot surface to the fluid is approximately halved compared with straight water. Also, the heat capacity of the fluid is reduced by about 15% and the viscosity is increased by about a third. This link gives some data on these latter effects. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethyl ... d_146.html.
IMHO if a cooling system is not pressurized then the use of glycol-based coolant is all negative as far as engine cooling is concerned. The only reason to use it is for freeze protection. In a pressurized system the elevation of boiling point that glycol gives can be exploited, hence its widespread use in "modern" cars.
If you do use it then it is essential to refresh it regularly (as you do). Glycol itself actually increases corrosion in comparison with soft water. It must have corrosion inhibitors added to it. These are consumed in use and so the coolant must be renewed at regular intervals. Similarly, it should not be diluted below about 25%.
Re: Source of updated water pump?
Richard the ambient temps here rarely go below zero degrees F. Thats also the time of year when salt gets used on the roads, here. I don't drive the TC when there is any chance of roads salts. Although the TC is unpressurized, it does have a thermostat, which negates the slight difference in heat transfer, as the thermostat just opens up until the rated temp it achieved. Right? I find the thicker 50/50 glycol mix prevents pump cavitation, especially in unpressurized setups, as well as it being an excellent lubricant for the pump and thermostat. The anti corrosion benefits of such a coolant mix are legend. When I use the standard 50/50 in my daily drivers I can remove an aluminum water pump and fittings after 100,000 miles and the aluminum shows zero indications of any corrosion whatsoever. That was true with the old formulation Prestones as well as the new OAT kind everybody now makes and sells. BUT, of course I am talking about only ever using good coolant that has not worn out yet. High revving work engines, and those operating at high heat like 210F for peak efficiency scales will wear out coolant faster than a V8 road car operating with a 170 or 180 degree thermostat, for instance.
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Re: Source of updated water pump?
Antifreeze does reduce cooling ability, but I suppose it's only a problem if the car is running hotter than you like. Once the thermostat is fully open, there is nothing more to be done. It either runs hot or doesn't!
Re: Source of updated water pump?
I'd still be curious what product Richard uses. There are any number of anti rust and lubricant products to add to water in lieu of a glycol coolant mix.
- frenchblatter
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Re: Source of updated water pump?
I ran my Caterham with machine oil in the water (the stuff that mixes with water). It stopped the coolant freezing, stopped rust and lubricated the water pump... all at the same time.
Lynne & Norman Verona.
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- Richard Michell
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Re: Source of updated water pump?
Sorry XPAGnut I have been on other duties. Also, being located in Australia, my answer may not help you very much.
We have a formal Australian technical standard for automotive coolants. As explained in this link https://www.nulon.com.au/support/what-i ... -b-coolant it divides coolants into Type A (antifreeze/antiboil plus corrosion protection) and Type B (corrosion protection only). I use Nulon Ultra Cool which is a Type B product, but locally made and so not much use to you probably.
Penrite market a product for classic cars (see http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/c ... ar-coolant) which, while again being of Australian origin, is sold in the UK. Not sure re the US. Someone must market straight automotive corrosion inhibitors there (I note that Chevron does, so there will presumably be many others).
In the Penrite link, and on the Nulon bottle I have, the better heat transfer performance of the Type B fluids is mentioned.
Re Norm's use of soluble oil, unfortunately this will eventually soften and ultimately dissolve rubber hoses - the rate depending on their composition - and it also reduces heat transfer efficiency.
We have a formal Australian technical standard for automotive coolants. As explained in this link https://www.nulon.com.au/support/what-i ... -b-coolant it divides coolants into Type A (antifreeze/antiboil plus corrosion protection) and Type B (corrosion protection only). I use Nulon Ultra Cool which is a Type B product, but locally made and so not much use to you probably.
Penrite market a product for classic cars (see http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/c ... ar-coolant) which, while again being of Australian origin, is sold in the UK. Not sure re the US. Someone must market straight automotive corrosion inhibitors there (I note that Chevron does, so there will presumably be many others).
In the Penrite link, and on the Nulon bottle I have, the better heat transfer performance of the Type B fluids is mentioned.
Re Norm's use of soluble oil, unfortunately this will eventually soften and ultimately dissolve rubber hoses - the rate depending on their composition - and it also reduces heat transfer efficiency.
- frenchblatter
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Re: Source of updated water pump?
Richard, I'm aware of the effect on hoses but the car has silicone hoses and I only used the soluble oil for a year. It was a weak mix and I never noticed the car running any hotter. It now has modern OAT coolant in it.
Lynne & Norman Verona.
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Re: Source of updated water pump?
Just ran across a special "introductory" deal on Abingdon Spares stainless steel thermostat housing kit for $140.
http://abingdonspares.com/2017/01/18/st ... t-housing/
Hard to tell if it same as mgtrepair.net unit for $250.
Richard, that is interesting about the Australian method of A & B for cooling systems. I wonder if the B is something like standard type coolant in the US, whereas in Aus they only tout the anti-corrosive and lube qualities for the B, and don't mention or claim any other advantages?
I think if I remember right, that one of the products some t-typers like is called "No-Rosion" and it's only availble from the manufacturer via mail. Add to good water or a coolant blend.
http://abingdonspares.com/2017/01/18/st ... t-housing/
Hard to tell if it same as mgtrepair.net unit for $250.
Richard, that is interesting about the Australian method of A & B for cooling systems. I wonder if the B is something like standard type coolant in the US, whereas in Aus they only tout the anti-corrosive and lube qualities for the B, and don't mention or claim any other advantages?
I think if I remember right, that one of the products some t-typers like is called "No-Rosion" and it's only availble from the manufacturer via mail. Add to good water or a coolant blend.
- Richard Michell
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Re: Source of updated water pump?
Hi Norm and XPAGnut.
Norm, I attempted to cover myself re soluble oil and hoses by adding the phrase "depending on their composition". Silicone hoses would be fine.
XPAGnut, no, the Type B standard is specifically for products that have no deliberate antifreeze/antiboil effect. That is, they are glycol free. You have mentioned Prestone. From their web site it seems all of their products are Type A.
Type B products give only corrosion and cavitation protection. They do not change freezing or boiling point, at least not materially. Similarly, they do not reduce heat transfer performance.
Re the Abingdon thermostat housing, it is not clear from their picture, at least to me, whether or not the by-pass pipe is restricted at all. In the original (TC) design, the thermostat was a trick one and closed off the by-pass pipe as it opened. NTG sell a version that has a restrictor in the by-pass. The size of the hole can be played with if desired. http://www.ntgservices.co.uk/contents/e ... embly.html
Norm, I attempted to cover myself re soluble oil and hoses by adding the phrase "depending on their composition". Silicone hoses would be fine.
XPAGnut, no, the Type B standard is specifically for products that have no deliberate antifreeze/antiboil effect. That is, they are glycol free. You have mentioned Prestone. From their web site it seems all of their products are Type A.
Type B products give only corrosion and cavitation protection. They do not change freezing or boiling point, at least not materially. Similarly, they do not reduce heat transfer performance.
Re the Abingdon thermostat housing, it is not clear from their picture, at least to me, whether or not the by-pass pipe is restricted at all. In the original (TC) design, the thermostat was a trick one and closed off the by-pass pipe as it opened. NTG sell a version that has a restrictor in the by-pass. The size of the hole can be played with if desired. http://www.ntgservices.co.uk/contents/e ... embly.html